Jasmine Shah at Express Townhall: We feel unemployment allowance is a good idea; of course fiscal management has to happen

You are behind key Delhi government initiatives such as the new electric vehicle policy, outcome budget, and most recently the Rozgaar initiative. In a nutshell, what is the DDC’s mandate?

DDC was set up in 2015 immediately after the AAP government first came to power. We felt there is a need of a think tank that can bridge the gap between government and stakeholders outside, who can and must contribute to the process of policy making… Unless we are able to access the best of ideas from India from around the world — be it from academia, be it from civil society, be it from industries, be it from cities like New York, London, Singapore — how are we going to solve problems in a sustainable manner?

How successful has the EV policy been so far?

The EV policy came exactly two years back in August of 2020. The year before that in 2019-20, EVs constituted 1.2 % of the newly registered vehicles in Delhi. We said we will take it to 25% in three years… As of date we are around 11%. This is thrice as compared to any other state, and even if you look at large cities, no large city has crossed 5-6%… I think if there is one city in India that can aspire to join the Global League in terms of sustainable transport, it is Delhi… We are planning moves like making it mandatory for fleets to transition a part of their vehicles to EVs.

Has there been pushback from private players? What about the charging infrastructure?

Fortunately, there hasn’t been (pushback)… I would say though that the way Delhi government has approached it is you first provide a facilitating environment, rather than bringing mandates. If we had started talking about that in 2020, there would have been a huge pushback because neither the incentives mechanism was in place, nor was the charging infrastructure.

Which segment has seen the biggest adoption of EVs?

Two- and three-wheelers are the primary target of the policy and that’s when the growth is… EV transition can happen when there is almost price parity or you are approaching price parity. Incentives cannot change the market dynamics beyond a point. In four-wheelers, we have not reached that point… And if you put together the fact that the running cost of EV is probably one-fifth of that of petrol or diesel vehicle, you would be stupid today to buy a petrol two-wheeler. You get fantastic models, and the upfront cost is marginally high if not less because of the subsidies that you get. You will recover everything within the first few months and run it for 10 years.

The CM has taken the BJP head on over the ‘revdi’ or freebie politics debate. Social welfare has become a polarised topic. How do you weigh in on this?

We welcome the fact that today as a nation, we are debating social welfare models. I think for long, we see the national debate being occupied by all issues other than how to improve the condition of our people… Probably the message set in motion by the PM and then followed by BJP leaders is because it’s not that seeing the success of the AAP’s development model or the welfare model, where we do believe in investing maximum percentage of  our budget in education and health and it’s an article of faith for us because that’s core to idea of how we see this country developing.

It is a tragedy that when the chief minister of Gujarat buys a private jet, nobody calls that into question. When Aam Aadmi Party decided we will make bus rides free for women — and there is a reason behind that since when we know about the outcomes and we know the gender gap that exists in a nation today and what mobility does for a host of outcomes such as education employment — the immediate reaction is that we have given freebies… Our expense on free bus rides is around Rs 200-250 crore but it is impacting lakhs of women… Knowing the status of unemployment, we feel unemployment allowance is a good idea. Of course fiscal management has to happen and AAP is committed to doing that.

What is Delhi government’s subsidy bill as of now?

The subsidy bill for electricity is Rs 3,200 crore, around Rs 600 crore is water and around Rs 250 crore for buses. Then we have a budgetary expenditure on health and education. Rs 4,000 crore out of a budget of Rs 75,000 crore. We are talking about 5-6%.

We did a household survey asking people which of these five major benefits are you actually benefiting from and what does it mean in terms of per month contribution to your saving? The number was Rs 2,500 per family per month… For us, it (calling these freebies) is BJP acknowledging that they will not be able to match for welfare politics.

On the excise policy row, even before allegations of corruption were made against government, private players had begun pulling out of contracts. What went wrong?

We have to acknowledge that even in a place like Delhi, sale of illicit liquor was a huge business. There was a mafia… Why does it happen? First reason was that in practicality, there was always partial prohibition in Delhi. Half of Delhi — around 134 wards had either no shops or one shop… Duty structures were also regressive because retail licences were given at meagre sums of Rs 8 lakh, but the government would then take excise duty on the sale of liquor and, therefore, you would indulge in sale of non-duty paid liquor. The third thing was the government was dominating the sales of liquor — around 60% of the shops, and the experience was not the best. Brand pushing was the name of the game… The policy first and foremost brought in equitable distribution of liquor shops… Upfront annual fees were collected (from private players) rather than duty on sales. There is no incentive to cheat… Forty eight hours before the policy was rolled out — the policy was discussed and vetted by the former L-G — everything was in place, shops were about to open, but the foundation of the policy was attacked. The L-G office acting on suo motu basis, said that in non-conforming areas of Delhi, shops will not be allowed without approval from DDA and MCD… So we actually overnight became more aggressive than even the earlier regressive excise regime… No private player likes to exist in a situation where there is a constant threat of local authorities.

You showcase your governance model in Delhi in education and health, but Delhi is not a full-fledged state. Now, you have got a shot in Punjab. It has been 5 months… finances are in disarray, law and order is not in a great condition. You have also not fulfilled a few manifesto promises, such as Rs 1,000 allowance for women.

It is your assessment that things haven’t been off to a good start. We believe the last few months have actually laid the perfect foundation for what we hope to achieve in Punjab… It is a state in deep debt — Rs 3 lakh crore. That has not happened over the last 5-10 years; it has happened over decades. We can’t expect that to be erased in 3-5 months. The issue of drugs again has not happened overnight… I think today, for the first time, if you ask the people of Punjab… there is genuine hope that people do have from the AAP, and that’s because they know that these people are not typical politicians, they are not here to make empty promises. Within the first month of coming to power, we announced an anti-corruption action line… On the matter of drugs, in July 2,500 people were arrested… Police for the first time know there will be no political interference… While we have made promises, manifestos are for 5 years, not three months. We call these guarantees and stand by everything we have said.

AAP says BJP has police control in Delhi, which they use to show their power. You have police under you in Punjab and there have been instances where the Punjab police have come to question or arrest leaders like Kumar Vishwas, Tajinder Bagga and Alka Lamba.

If somebody has violated a law in India, the treatment can’t be different depending on which party you are from. We have seen all kinds of corruption scams happening and BJP leaders being at the centre of them? How many of them have ED or CBI paid a visit to?… Kumar Vishwas said that the CM of Delhi is out to divide this nation. This is libel and invites prosecution. The action has to be as per the law of the land.

Why did Delhi government introduce the option of opting out of the power subsidy?

Many BJP leaders said the subsidy is not needed and it will destroy the state. So we decided to give the option to those who are against the subsidy to opt out. We created this option for bus rides for women also… In our country, targeting mechanisms are very difficult. Identifying who is poor, who is not is tough and therefore we use proxies… If your conscience does not permit you to take a subsidy, don’t take it. This option should have been there earlier.

Your most recent initiative has been the rozgaar budget. What was the thought process behind introducing it?

Post-pandemic, the priority of the CM was unemployment and the distress created because unemployment is the single largest issue facing the nation today. It’s the same in Delhi. We have seen a large number of livelihoods go out because of Covid… We asked ourselves, where are the next 1 million-2 million jobs of Delhi going to come from… Out of all these conversations is where the plan for the Rozgaar budget… There are around 13-14 initiatives. Each has been mapped out as per its potential to create jobs in a five-year horizon. One of the highlights is the revival of markets… Delhi will also have a shopping festival of a scale that has not been seen in the country before… We are talking to some new economies of Delhi like cloud kitchens and food trucks… You will see a very forward-looking, progressive cloud kitchen industry. We want Delhi to be a hub for the entire NCR.