Transcripts provide insight in altercation between public defender, deputies: What they say

Moments before the recent scuffle between three courtroom security deputies and an assistant Monroe County public defender, another public defender implored the security, "Don't touch her."

Then, as a transcript from the hearing shows, the altercation began.

A transcript of the Nov. 5 hearing, obtained by the Democrat and Chronicle, provides some clarity as to what happened before the confrontation between the deputies and the assistant public defender, but little about the blow-up itself.

The incident itself is now being investigated by the Inspector General's Office of the Office of Court Administration, or OCA; OCA manages the court system. The District Attorney's Office has also referred the incident to an outside prosecutor since some of its staff will be witnesses.

There were no cameras in the courtroom — the incident happened in the Rochester City Courtroom of Judge Teresa Johnson — but there is an audio recording. The Democrat and Chronicle was not given access to the audio, but purchased a transcript.

From Nov. 5: Public defender facing charges over alleged scuffle with deputies in Rochester City Court

On Friday, the Monroe County Bar Association said in a statement, "On Nov. 5, we learned of an incident involving the use of force by Monroe County Sheriff deputies on a female attorney of color at the Monroe County Hall of Justice.

"We do not have full information about the incident and what precipitated this use of force. That said, the MCBA is concerned about the use of force in the Hall of Justice against anyone, let alone an attorney. The public has a right to know whether the use of force was necessary and proportional considering the facts and circumstances known at the time."

The Sheriff's Office said its three deputies suffered minor injuries, while the assistant public defender was treated at a hospital for a wrist injury. The Public Defender's Office has questioned the use of force with the deputies, as did the Rochester Black Bar Association.

There was also the possibility of criminal charges against the assistant public defender, but none have been brought to date. That decision could hinge on the OCA investigation.

(The Democrat and Chronicle, at this time, is not naming the assistant public defender or the deputies involved in the altercation.)

The courtroom hearing

What prefaced the altercation was the hearing of a city man facing harassment and petit larceny charges, and also an order of protection to keep him from a girlfriend who is the mother of his 7-year-old son.

The man grew upset at the thought of an order of protection; he said he did not want to be kept from his son. His girlfriend did not intend to follow up on allegations that he had grabbed her and physically thrown her, he said.

"Me and her are good," he told Johnson. "I'm out of here. Bailiff, take me out of here."

The man then headed to a holding area outside the courtroom.

"Bring him back," Johnson said. "This is my court. Back out here."

The assistant public defender representing the man then asked for a break, as the man went into the holding area; Johnson said the hearing would instead continue.

The assistant public defender who ended up in the confrontation then tried to go to the defendant in the holding area and calm him, and was told by the judge and security she could not. According to the transcript, there is some physical interaction at this point, and a deputy called for a supervisor.

"You can call whoever you want," the assistant public defender said. "Never put your hands on me again. You touched me."

Then, for the moment, the issue seemed resolved and calm restored.

"When I'm talking to you, there is not (sic) for you to ignore me and keep talking to (security)," Johnson told the lawyer. "You see, I'm trying to address the situation. (Security) reacted and I reacted because you were moving towards that door that we had just said you cannot go behind because they're right behind that door with an incident."

"I was trying to get clarification," the defense lawyer said.

She then told Johnson that a deputy "grabbed me and talked to me in a disrespectful manner in your courtroom and now you want to reprimand me."

"... Because I'm trying to talk and you won't listen," Johnson said. "And when I'm finished, I'm going to give you a chance."

Johnson then explained what she said she had just witnessed.

"It shouldn't be a big issue. You're asking him to open the door when we just told you you can't go back there. And there was a good reason for it. So that's the issue. So you both got in each others' faces, unnecessarily. Both of you."

The defense lawyer said she had asked for a chance to talk to the defendant and was treated rudely. "I just want to be allowed to speak with him," she said. "I have to speak with him by going through the doors. And, then (security) said, 'Do you have a problem understanding?' "

"... I'm waiting patiently to have an opportunity to speak to a client so that he can be made aware of what this piece of paper means," she said of the order of protection.

Johnson told the lawyer she never made clear that the defendant was a client of hers. The defense lawyer said the defendant was represented by the Public Defender's Office and she was trying to help her colleague quell a "crisis" from the defendant.

" ... We clearly all were in the same room, but we all saw two different things," the defense lawyer said.

The confrontation

The transcript does not make clear how the incident erupted after apparent calm and the efforts for explanation from the judge and the attorney.

The transcript reads:

Johnson: All right. This is over. This is over.

Assistant public defender: He placed his hands on my hands and he got in my face.

Johnson: This is over. This is over.

Assistant public defender: Thank you. I just want to make sure we're clear as to what happened. That's all.

Johnson: We're ... I know what I saw. And I know what I heard. Now ...

As the transcript shows, this is where the confrontation is sparked. What started it is not demonstrated by the transcript.

Second assistant public defender: Don't touch her.

Johnson: You never said this is my client and maybe I can help him.

Second assistant public defender: Hey. Hey. No.

Deputy: Get back.

Second public defender: No. No. No.

Unidentified speaker: Cuff her.

Unidentified speaker: What is going on?

That is where the transcript ends.

An OCA spokesman said Friday that the audio from the hearing, as well as courtroom witnesses, will help expedite its investigation.

A time frame for the OCA investigation was not immediately available.

Contact Gary Craig at gcraig@gannett.com or at 585-258-2479. Follow him on Twitter at gcraig1.

This article originally appeared on Rochester Democrat and Chronicle: Transcripts from Rochester courtroom scuffle involving lawyer obtained