Punjab Chief Minsiter Amrinder Singh. (Illustration: Suvajit Dey)

The CM says letter by 23 Cong leaders affects discipline in state units, warns farmers will fall prey to Pak propaganda if Punjab shares water with Haryana under SYL canal project, and notes any war with China will also involve Pakistan. The session was moderated by Resident Editor (Punjab & Haryana) Manraj Grewal Sharma.

MANRAJ GREWAL SHARMA: The Congress Working Committee meeting was held after a letter by 23 leaders sought sweeping changes in the party. Has that been helpful in shaping a strong Opposition?

I think so. The only difference (of opinion) that I had (with the leaders who wrote the letter) was that it should have been shared and discussed at the CWC. We should have approached the Congress president and resolved it instead of going to the press. We have to maintain discipline in states. We have to see to it that the party remains a cohesive force. If you start having divisions at the CWC-level, how do I maintain discipline at the state level?

LIZ MATHEW: Some Congress leaders were angry with the letter. The leaders who wrote the letter claimed that they had tried to raise the issues several times, but they were not addressed.

I am in the first category. As far as the second category is concerned, how can anyone say that? How can Mrs Gandhi say that I am not going to meet 20-odd senior leaders of the party? She would never say that. Had they written to her or to Rahul Gandhi or to both of them, and said they wanted to discuss these points, it would have been done.

We are not angry. We only feel that there should be a certain decorum. I will tell you a story. Many years ago, I was a young MP and had come to Parliament for the first time in 1980. I told a newspaper that I did not agree with the then Punjab chief minister. Indira Gandhi was the prime minister. Around mid-day, I got a message in the Central Hall that the prime minister wanted to see me. She asked, ‘Did you write it?’. I said yes. She asked me why, and I said because this is how I felt. She said, ‘Do you know who has made (him) the chief minister?’. I said you have. She said, “Don’t you think you are writing against my discretion? He has been made the CM by me and if you have any problems, meet the CM or tell me. But don’t go and write this in the papers.’

HARISH DAMODARAN: Punjab has come up with a Paani Bachao, Paise Kamao scheme to save water. What has its progress been? How do you wean away the Punjab farmer from paddy?

We have put meters on every tubewell and we check the consumption. We have fixed the (electricity) consumption for paddy and other crops. If a farmer does not reach that figure, say of Rs 3,000, and his consumption is worth only Rs 2,200, then we give him Rs 800. That way we save water, if not money.

As for paddy, the only way to wean the farmer away from it is diversification. I remember when I left the Army in 1969 and came home, nobody knew what paddy was. In 1966-67, they started research on paddy in the Philippines, and by 1970, the whole of Punjab was growing paddy. Today, we have two problems. One, your glaciers are melting, river water is depleting. As a consequence, people are over pumping. In 1969, the groundwater in Patiala stood at 30 feet, now it is at 350 feet. Seventy per cent of my farmers have less than five acres, can they dig 400 feet for a tubewell? How will they pay for it? Diversification is the answer. I am also pushing hard for industry.

MANRAJ GREWAL SHARMA: With the Supreme Court directing the chief ministers of Punjab and Haryana to negotiate and settle the Sutlej-Yamuna Link (SYL) canal issue, the project is back in the news. Given that there is not enough water, does it only remain an emotive and political issue?

When Punjab and Haryana were formed, every asset of Punjab was divided in the 60:40 ratio. We got 60% and Haryana 40. Everything was divided on this basis except for water. You put Sutlej, Ravi and Beas into the pool to decide. But what about Yamuna water that was coming into erstwhile Punjab? That was given to Haryana. They have 80 lakh acres and we have 105 lakh acres. As of today, they have more water than us. And now they have got a further commitment of 1 MAF (million acre-feet) from the Sharda-Yamuna link canal. Is it fair for them to ask for more water?

They keep saying it has been decreed. But what can you do with a decree? You know what will happen? Punjab will come under the shadow of guns again. Pakistan is waiting for an opportunity… (Poor) farmers will become available for propaganda by Pakistan. I have caught about 140 terrorists coming from there, apart from gangsters. Today, they are sending weapons through drones. I do not want my Punjab to burn again. We had trouble in 1984…We had trouble after 1990 when they assassinated our chief minister Beant Singh. This Sikhs for Justice in the US is always making noise. Who are they fronting? Who is paying Gurpatwant Singh Pannu? It is the ISI. We have to avoid any situation that can brew trouble.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: You are a military historian and you have written on Kargil. You are working on a book on India-China as well. What are the similarities between the border standoff with China and at Kargil?

Kargil was a different issue. It was a misconception of the Pakistani president. He made a blunder. It is sad we lost a lot of people, but we handled the intruders very professionally and they had to suffer.

Now China is flexing its muscles. In 1962 too, they came to Galwan. But we are in a much, much better position. Now we have a whole corps there — 10 brigades. We have fine commanders. Chinese are going to be very foolish if they think they can run us over. They had a bloody nose in 1967 and they will get a bloody nose this time too.

The Galwan fracas should have never happened had the command given the right orders. You had Doklam, and after that you knew that the Chinese were becoming aggressive. But you still have in place a 1993 order saying you cannot carry or use weapons. I was at the Chinese border for two years. We never went out on patrol till we were fully armed.

Our boys fought very well. They had nothing, they picked up stones and finally snatched clubs from the Chinese and used those. I have my boy from Mansa, Gurtej Singh, who killed with whatever he could pick up till he was stabbed in the back. Our boys are in very good shape. The leadership has to be effective.

MANOJ C G: The contents of the letter written to the Congress president were never discussed by the party. Instead, the timing and intent were questioned. Why was the letter not circulated in the CWC meeting that continued for seven hours?

The letter appeared in the morning. I opened The Indian Express and saw the pictures and everything. And, the very next day, the CWC was called. We did not even know the contents fully. I do not know if anyone had the contents. You cannot discuss it the very next day. First task is to resolve the current issue. You have to see that normalcy returns. I am sure the issues will come up in the next meeting.

I have known Soniaji since she made me a (state) Congress president in 1999, she is a very perceptive person. She will deal with this. It is a question of timing.

KRISHN KAUSHIK: You mentioned China flexing its muscles. What can India do to prepare for a war that could be looming? Do you think it was the fault of the military, intelligence or political leadership that things have come to this stage?

Normally, these things should have been known in the diplomatic and intelligence channels and the government should have been informed accordingly. But, the fact is that it has taken place and it’s now for the government to resolve it. I am not for war. But we must be prepared. There is an old saying that ‘if you want peace, then prepare for war’. We have to see that we are secure… We have got a good military, a good air force, though we may be short of some aircraft, and we have an established navy.

We have been surrounded by the Chinese. Right from the whole of the North, they are also there on the Western front, they are great allies with Pakistan, and the Chinese Navy is now operating in the Indian Ocean. They are holding Aksai Chin… Now they are demanding areas in Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh — when is this going to stop? We can put an end to this only when we can deal with them effectively, militarily. It is the government’s duty to prioritise this.

KRISHN KAUSHIK: China has developed much better infrastructure on their side of the LAC. We have never been able to develop that…

It is because we have very steep mountainous terrain. They have got the Tibetan plateau so it is easier for them to bring their trains and roads right up to the border. It is not easy for us. Now, Rohtang is through. So, we will have an all-weather road going to Leh and you won’t have to come through the Kashmir Valley. Secondly, we need resources. The Chinese economy is booming, we need alternatives too.

SUNNY VERMA: The onus for the recovery of the economy will also be on the states. What is Punjab’s plan? Do you agree with the Centre’s approach?

I don’t agree one per cent with the Centre’s approach. Firstly, we had to shut down everything in March. The 1.34 lakh industrial units in Ludhiana were down to zero. Now we have got them working and about 16 lakh migrant workers are returning. But unfortunately, we have got no support from the Central government to fight Covid-19… The Government of India has given us Rs 101 crore till now. I have spent Rs 500 crore. I don’t have the money because my own resources have ground to a halt. We have around 44,000 cases, which don’t sound so much as compared to other states, but we are just 2 per cent of India. We are expected to peak by mid-September and a team of doctors guiding us has forecast that we will go to 1.10 lakh cases and fatalities will cross 3,000. I need resources to deal with that. I don’t have them.

Now I am told that even GST (payment) is not going to come. I have not received GST since March and I have been told that ‘there is no obligation on the Central government to pay GST compensation to the states and GST council has to decide the ways to make up for the shortfall’. My FM goes to meet Nirmala Sitharaman and she says, ‘I don’t have the money’. If you don’t have the money, then from where are we to get the money from? We gave you the power to tax us and your job was to give us a certain percentage. But you don’t want to give us that either. I don’t have money of my own, I can’t get money from them. All my figures are negative. Things are picking up, but they don’t happen overnight.

As for education, the UGC is not allowing me to postpone the exams or to pass children like I have done up to Class 10. They say no, they must sit for exams. How can they sit for an exam when Punjab is heading for a crisis? I don’t understand sometimes what this government is up to. We are in a war-like situation and we have to take decisions accordingly.

KANCHAN VASDEV: At the meeting of the Opposition called by Sonia Gandhi, you said Punjab is going to have a deficit of Rs 25,000 crore this fiscal. How is it going to stay afloat?

This is the story of all the states. We have asked for a few things, for example, the state’s GST… they have agreed to let us borrow up to 4 per cent, but they have put conditions that we cannot meet, and we have sought their removal. We have also asked NITI Aayog to extend help for four years. I have set up a committee under Montek Singh Ahluwalia to see how we can get the economy moving despite Covid-19, but it’s going to take a lot of time.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: You seem to have a high level of confidence in the military leadership to respond to any incursion by the Chinese. What about the political and diplomatic leadership of India? The PM gave a statement which was contradicted the next day by the Foreign Ministry.

Firstly, I am not a diplomat, I don’t have that temperament, but we all hope that things normalise through talks. Talks mean diplomacy… I can’t comment on the Foreign office or the PM. He must be knowing what he is doing, but he should work for peace and prepare for war.

ANJU AGNIHOTRI CHABA: Your government is opposing the Agricultural Produce Markets (Amendment) Ordinance passed by the Central government. Isn’t the dismantling of monopolies of APMCs, allowing traders to buy produce directly, in favour of farmers?

We are not saying that don’t buy from farmers, they are already buying it. Who is buying all my milk? It is Nestle in Moga, other plants in Nabha, Patiala; Anand from Gujarat is buying our milk. We are not stopping that. We have ITC and Pepsi setting up plants. We are opposing this ordinance because in 1966 when we were going around with a begging bowl, Punjab rose to the occasion and within three years became the bread bowl of India. We have done it for 60 years. It’s because Punjabi farmer knows that if he grows wheat or paddy, he will get a minimum support price. The trouble is when you lift that. For instance, recently spring corn came into mandis. The support price for maize was Rs 1,700 but the corn went for Rs 600. It’s such price crashes I fear.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: You have been an advocate of ties between the two Punjabs, and India and Pakistan. With the LAC standoff, how do you see the Pakistan relationship going forward?

During my last tenure from 2002-2007, I was very keen on close ties… I went to Pakistan twice, their Punjab CM came twice, we had Punjab to Punjab games, exchange of teachers, students, lawyers and everyone… Unfortunately, there is a disconnect between interpersonal contact and the way Pakistan establishment functions. I don’t think they want Indo-Pak friendship because the ISI calls the shots and it thrives on tensions.

Now the ISI is very strong. Look what they are doing in Kashmir. Every day my boys are dying. Their military’s survival depends on hostilities with India. Now they have come close to China, they have got this Karakoram Highway done, they have been given Chinese naval support… The Highway is a very strategic project, it travels all along Punjab border via Islamabad till it reaches Karachi— it is a sort of defensive line that they have created… I don’t think Pakistan and India will ever be in a friendship stage because now Pakistan’s interests lie with China.

If we have any operation with China, you can mark my words, it will be a collusive war, with Pakistan also involved in it. Go to Pakistan, you will find a Chinese chap in every second or third household. I don’t know what commerce they are doing there, I am sure our intelligence people would know. But with so many Chinese there, and so much Chinese economic, industrial and naval interest, they will definitely work together in any operation. If we have any operation with China, Pakistan will intercede and if we have it with Pakistan, China will intercede. That’s what we have to be prepared for.