In an in-depth, revelatory Masterclass with Indian director Shakun Batra at Jio Mami 20th Mumbai Film Festival With Star, American filmmaker Sean Baker, best known for indies like Tangerine and The Florida Project (and also the chairperson on the International Competition jury), spoke at length about his filming philosophy and process and journey. The Hindu caught up with him for a broader chat on independent cinema and how it has transformed over the years. Edited excerpts from an interview…
The indie path was a matter of choice for you. For a lot of filmmakers in India, it has been a necessity. Does that impact the filmmaking itself in any way?
I have seen a lot of filmmakers almost desperately trying to make a film as a calling card. It depends on what the filmmaker wants. I found that when I started to get influenced by the independent filmmakers that I love--[Jim] Jarmusch, Spike Lee, [John] Cassavetes--people who had really strong personal visions and voices, I said I want to do that. I would not make something for the masses but from my own personal vision. If my story happens to find an audience, it finds an audience. That I thought would be really special. Then there are those who say I am making a film so that Hollywood accepts me. Then you are showing them that you can do something... in order to get a job. I never pursued the studio system entirely.
At the same time, almost any independent filmmaker, starting from scratch, however independently wealthy, is a hustler, figuring out a way to make a movie by any means necessary. Even though I recognise that I was lucky enough to attend university, that I am a white male in the United States, that I have that privilege that I was born into; at the same time I had to hustle because I didn’t have parents in the industry so it was still starting from scratch.
You are resolutely indie even in terms of the background that you come from…
You said that it was a choice for me to not go with the studio system… But to tell you the truth I would probably have accepted the studio system had they got me in. I don’t know. I find myself in a weird place because it took me literally by my fifth film to break out. Tangerine was my fifth and that was the one that got most attention and opened the doors for The Florida Project. For so long I was just hustling to get recognised. By the time I did get recognised; now Hollywood is saying ‘come, we want you’ and I am like ‘no, I am comfortable here; I don’t need you guys now’. That’s how it has worked with me. Everybody’s path is different. I can talk about my own personal experiences, I can tell things that worked for me. But it’s not going to work for everybody. It’s definitely not going to be everybody’s path. The thing about being a filmmaker is that your journey is going to be very unique.
Going back to the bit about calling card. A filmmaker might make a film with a pure, independent spirit but there is a whole market out there waiting to appropriate her or him. From your own individual experience how far would you go or not? How have you stayed resolutely independent?
I wish I [had taken] business classes at the NYU because I would have been able to figure this out a bit better. It is very difficult, even with what is perceived as successful films, to make a living. I have put myself in a situation where I don’t have children. That’s a big deal. I don’t think I could have pursued independent filmmaking if I had children. I simply couldn’t. I would have had to take on a more secure, full-time job.
I was working on a television show for a very long time. They are very different from my movies. Those are comedy shows that I was one of the co-creators on. Now it didn’t make [me] rich but it definitely allowed me to work for many years on the show without having to get a nine-to-five job. It allowed me to stay in the industry, it paid my rent. That’s why I consider myself very lucky.
I studied how to tell a story in the running time of around 90 minutes to two hours, I don’t need to spend an entire season with my characters. Therefore, I am committed to making feature films. And I have to find out a way how to make money to help support it. I have been doing commercials which is great because it is an anonymous way a filmmaker can practice his or her craft and it doesn’t take as much time as television. There are music videos and fashion films. I have made more money from my commercials and fashion features than I have from my films. But the features get me the commercials and fashion films.
I have made personal choices. I am not a very materialistic guy. I have an old used car and a one-bedroom apartment. There’s that school of thought where you become a big Hollywood director and you live in Beverly Hills, in big mansions. That’s not me. As long as I am healthy, as long as people around me are happy, my dogs get fed properly, everything is good.
Oh you have dogs!
Two of them, two Chihuahuas [laughs].
How lovely! Back to independent cinema. It often gets variously defined. Basically boils down to the [lack of] big money and [independence from] the studio system. But it’s also about the approach, the tools, the technology, the processes you go through in making a film. What does it mean to you personally?
It’s the spirit. Independent cinema is anything made outside of the US studio system. But there’s the independent spirit and that’s something different. It’s about thinking differently, it’s about breaking stereotypes, finding different ways of making your film, experimenting. That’s the last thing a studio wants to do. They have a way making a movie. Like Netflix. All their originals look the same. They are all shot on the same cameras, they have the same deliverables. They are the new studios. I want my films to look different, I want my films to be telling different stories, I want my films to be alternative cinema. Alternative cinema is what inspired me, has always excited me. I want to do something new, fresh. I am in so much awe [of it] because that not only was it a different way of thinking but filmmaking is a long process, involving lots of money and time and for them to go all the way with an idea they were passionate about.
Ironically, here there is hope that the streaming platforms would, perhaps, allow the young filmmakers to present an alternative vision, while you and Lucrecia [Martel] have been dwelling on the homogeneity of images…
I 100% agree with her [smiles].
Is the indie cinema narrative more receptive to the fringes of our consciousness?
Those groups, microcosms and communities that are marginalised are marginalised because they are being pushed aside. The more stories we tell about them, the less marginalised they will be. It’s not just about normalising something; it’s about people seeing themselves in other people that they normally have nothing in common with. Sex workers in the middle of LA may go through the same struggles that I am going through. One has a broken heart; another just wants some recognition for her art. The social, economic barriers that we have in place can hopefully be stripped away when one sees that we are all humans. We all have the same desires, hopes, dreams. That’s the goal. Whether or not it’s happening I don’t know but the feedback I get is that it helps. I have had my perceptions changed by films. My hope is that my films are also doing that.
You have talked of humour in the social sphere, using it in dealing with the social issues you are engaging with in your films. Can one see you doing something purely humourous, without the weight of the issues?
I used to do that for TV but even that used to have a bit of social commentary, hidden social message. Some of the most wonderful comedies out there, they still deal with social issues. Comedies are about gender politics. It’s just how you disguise those things. The audience doesn’t want to be lectured to. Most have come from a hard day’s work, they have spent their hard earned money. The last thing they want to feel is like thay have been to school. There is a way of providing laughter and escapism and at the same time helping shed light on something or helping change perspective on something that is not done in an overbearing way. It’s about having a conversation with the audience. They like being respected that way. But yes I love comedy. I hope some day I will do something that is less issue-based and more to do with just character.
The kind of films you have seen here [in MAMI’s competition section], do they fill you with a sense hope or apprehension or mixed feelings?
The films have a personal vision. They are very unique. They also have a very strong visual sense. This is something we often forget that this is a visual medium so let’s give the audience something to look at. The films were very impressive because they were all first-time filmmakers. They were lot better than my first film. It is nice to know that they are not afraid of making unconventional films that, perhaps, aren’t for everybody. We were earlier talking of calling cards. I don’t think there was a single film in the international competition section that came across as a calling card.
From your first film to now, you would have witnessed a major transition in independent cinema itself…
It’s the technological change that has allowed many more people to have access to cinema. Digital is a blessing and a curse. But it is a blessing because it has truly allowed more people to make films. There is more content out there. I am a bit overwhelmed because I didn’t hit young like some of my peers. Like [Quentin] Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson. They hit on their first film. It took me a long time to hit. Yet, at the same time, I am very happy that I started making films when I did because now filmmakers have to deal with so much more competition.
The availability of the tools, democratisation of the medium brings along with it the danger of sub-par content…
No doubt about that. There’s also the impact it has had on celluloid. That’s a sad thing. But I am still holding on to this notion that the cream will still rise to the top. It might take time but good films in good festivals eventually get out there. Shakun said that his favourite film of mine was Prince of Broadway. Then I made Starlet, Tangerine and The Florida Project. It took three more films for him to watch that film…
Ironically, in India it’s the illegal piracy route through which we had access to several of your films. Cine literacy has spread through piracy in many world cinema-deprived countries…
I am fine with that. But I don’t know what my financiers would have to say. It’s like a necessary evil and I don’t mean it in a negative way. I remember when I used to go to Chinatown and go through the bins of DVDs and pirated movies. One time I found my own film in it and I was so happy. This means I made it. Somewhere in China they found my film and duped it and made many copies and sent it to the US.